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You’re listening to the Cornwall Cancer Cafe podcast with me Matthew Clark and with me Emma
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Coombe. The Cornwall Cancer Cafe podcast is funded by the National Lottery Fund.
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Here we are with another edition of the Cornwall Cancer Cafe podcast and we are talking support
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and we are giving you a great big hug because we’ve needed it. You’ve needed it haven’t you
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certainly certainly and so what I need to say to begin with is that neither Emma nor myself
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are medically trained are we we are not no okay do you have any other qualifications
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and well in which direction driving a dive boat oh driving a dive boat yes I’m driving a car as
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well I got those two okay yes well and I’m not a trained counselor are you a trained counselor
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so we’re not trained in anything but what I have and what Emma has is lived experience of cancer
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and I had non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma and my cancer is melanoma okay so what you know is that we
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are giving you a hug because we have been there and in lots of ways we are still going
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through a lot of the stuff aren’t we yeah we’re both still having treatment aren’t we so
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yes big hugs all around big hugs now we’ve got some guests this week and they are Emma Packer
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and Claire Hamlin and both of them are music therapists we should have had them to do that
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little sort of I made that up on the spot maybe we will get them to record something
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like that maybe something more tuneful than so um okay so let’s just get you to introduce
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yourselves so let’s go for Claire because you’re sitting nearer to me
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Claire just give me a little intro to yourself oh um so I’m Claire um I’ve been a musician
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most of my life I think music came into my life when I was about seven years old
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so there’s a very long time long journey with music um living in Cornwall and loving living
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in Cornwall um it’s such a beautiful place to be and um yeah really enjoying exploring music
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therapy and and that work what are the main instruments you play um so my main instrument
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I would say would be violin um that’s the instrument that came to my life the earliest
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and is the one that I’ve stayed with um mine the rest of my life so far um but also
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play some other instruments slightly so things like piano and um singing and and things like that
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also with us Emma do you want to give us a little intro hello um so yeah so like Claire
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music’s been in my life the whole time in fact there’s a picture of me at about three
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months old sat at the piano playing it with my mum which is pretty good yeah so um and I
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also play the violin they’re my two instruments as well and I’ve been a music therapist for
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ten years oh old handed it well yeah not as old as some people um but yeah no I’m sorry if we use
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that that was really bad of me wasn’t it there were people out there that have been doing it
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longer than me but yeah it’s been a long time and yeah so music’s been the only thing I’ve
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ever been any good at and so uh to I started off in music teaching and now I’ve ended up here
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okay so uh Emma any sort of thoughts about what you want to uh fire off to them with um well I was
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gonna ask them what they get out of the therapy sessions but I don’t know whether you want to
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do some more probing yeah well let’s let’s let’s uh let’s save that one till later save
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that one till later okay so I would like to um find out how you two met because you you come
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do music therapy as a duo so how did the duo come to be Matty kindly recommended me to the Cove
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as and he was really keen for them to set up a music therapy group and Claire had been in
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Cornwall for a little while and was working with similar people to I was and so we met up
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to talk about um how to do that work and when the work from the Cove came through I knew I
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work is a lot going on in the room this it’s really quite specialist and I wanted somebody
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who I know I could bring in who would bring in different skills for me but also I knew I got
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on with and that we thought about music in the same sort of way and we thought about therapy in
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the same sort of way and Claire was the first and only name I thought of and so I I sent
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her a message and she said yes and I’ve been endlessly pleased about that ever since
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has Emma told you this before that that what she’s just said there no
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I feel very very special very lovely you can cry about it
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it’s good it’s thank you for the permission for that
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but no it’s it’s it’s quite wonderful to be thought of that way so thank you
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and I think it’s really important isn’t it’s anybody with experience in the particular area
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to work with other people who have maybe been doing it less time than you so that you you kind
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of because you learn from each other they come with new new skills and and I bring my experience
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and so you you you sort of share the the knowledge and you share the experience with
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people as well and and kind of pass it on in a way I think that’s really important I think
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what we’re going to do now as we’ve talked about music therapy is just to give just a
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little experience of we’re going to do a little music therapy session here for ourselves but
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before we do that I just want to ask Claire Claire you you start the music therapy session
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off with a bit of mindfulness don’t you well so it’s weather isn’t it yes we do weather
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report so it’s it’s a way of um sort of checking in with each other in the group we
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can kind of get a feel for what’s going on without being too direct about it so you don’t
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have to say exactly what’s going on for you but you can use the metaphor and symbolism of weather
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to give a picture of what that might look like so you could say like the morning started with
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bright spells and some rain came along later and then ending with some thunderstorms and
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that could actually give you an idea of emotionally what might be going on for that
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person without any specifics so it can be quite safe a safe way of introducing that material
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and then we sort of gently launch in um you you uh hit the keyboard well yeah and it’s the the
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one of the most important facets of music therapy is silence and so we just allow
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silence to sort of descend and inevitably somebody makes some sort of sound that I
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can respond to or Claire can respond to um her often on the violin and me on the piano
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and that that very tiny moment collectively sort of launches us into the music
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okay we’ll talk a bit more about that in a sec but uh okay cut to the music okay so there
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you are listening to a little example there um but we’ve got a little um bit of explanation
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on that haven’t we Emma yeah I think it’s really important to mention that this is an
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artificial situation and even though we four of us play together every month in the group
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this isn’t like the group is the group is a much freer situation whereas here we’ve
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you know we’ve we’ve sat and talked and it’s very artificial and so it’s slightly different
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to how it would be if we were in the group now just tell me what do you get from that
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sort of thing music well music has also been in my life since I was very young um so I’m
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a saxophone player and I’ve never been able to well I can pick some notes out on a piano and
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when I was at school I got to play on a violin and you get to play with various instruments but
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music is such a it’s such a strong emotive um tool I think and you can just lose yourself in
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it you can just concentrate on it mindfulness it’s really mindfulness if you can shut the
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out listen to the music that’s going on and then allow your emotions to go with the music
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it gives you the opportunity to express anything that you need to
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and um in in a session we just sort of follow you know there’s no plan is there
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there’s no plan and you don’t actually have to do anything do you no there is no plan
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and the group that we’re in there’s we’ve got very very different people who have got very
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different musical experiences um so some people will just just sort of jingle some bells and
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someone else will tap on a symbol um some people are more musical and will try and create
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a tune um and then others will try and join in the tune and other people then sort of look
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around the group and realize that something magical is happening and it can change your
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piece of music so all sorts happens in a music session I would say and it’s important to say
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that people don’t have to do anything do they in a session and you make that very very clear
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we give permission to be as you need to be if you need to be by yourself but in a collective
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in that moment and experience listening and and just being in a quiet way then that’s
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absolutely fine there’s no pressure to do anything you don’t want to do or don’t feel
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able to do in that moment and people don’t need to be musically trained do they no and
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you know we make that really clear right from the start that that no matter what you do
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that’s being musical the the the whole thing is just making sound and being part of the
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collective and actually reducing the need to aim for anything you don’t need to aim for
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just pick something that pick an instrument that appeals to you and and have fun with it be
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playful with it and be be free with it if you can which is really scary for a lot of people
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and really it takes a lot of courage to make that initial sound and creating that
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supportive atmosphere where that courage can come out is really important to us
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we’re talking about music therapy in this podcast so once again I think it’s time to
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offer you another big virtual hug from all of us here because I often need a hug you need a hug
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we all need hugs particularly going through tough stuff and if you give a hug you receive
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a hug oh there’s that there’s a good one I’m gonna have to remember that one
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and I’ve just had a moment of brain fog because I’ve just lost track of
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I can’t remember where I was going we were discussing this earlier we were discussing
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it earlier um it it’s taken me three attempts to find matty I’ve I’ve been to three different
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addresses because of the absolute brain fog that’s going on with me today so it’s been one of
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those days right okay I’ve remembered now so we’re talking about music therapy um now neither
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Emma Coombe Matthew Clark here are trained in any way but Emma Packer and Claire Hamlin are
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trained now now I’d like to know a little bit about the training um who who wants to give me
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a bit of a an insight into the training as a music therapist well I guess um Emma and I
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have had slightly different experiences of training because we’ve trained at different
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times um different lecturers we trained in the same place but um different lecturers were in
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when we were each training and each of those lecturers give their own perspectives on what
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they feel is important to teach and how the curriculum changes but it’s a very intense course
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I would say anyone thinking about pursuing music therapy uh strap in and you know brace
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yourself um it’s quite a personal development um you’re required when you’re training as a
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music therapist to do your own personal therapy as well um it’s it’s something I
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would definitely recommend um searching through parts of yourself um but also within the
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course there’s a there’s a lot of undoing of ways of being with music you know we’re
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usually people who go to music therapy training are trained musicians um and have undergone lots
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of ways of being with music where it’s quite performative or it’s quite disciplined um there’s
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a completely different relationship to music whereas through therapy music therapy training
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we’re taught how to be with music um in that non goal-centered approach it’s it’s a way of
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connecting with people um it’s a way of being with yourself and being with other people and
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and getting in touch with those emotions really um but also yeah there’s so much
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about theory and models and um yeah do you want to say anything it’s a it’s a master’s
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level course and it’s three it’s three years and it’s a significant chunk of your life that
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you give over to it our course was very person-centered so everything we everything we
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came out from and it uh from the first year when you’re dealing with children to the
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to the last year when you’re kind of dealing with them older the older generation
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it’s all about um what the person brings to the music what the person brings to the room
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and you following them being with them listening to them attending to their personal creativity
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and actually it can start with the breath you know it can start with breathing with somebody
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all the way along to hitting drums and playing instruments and singing singing is a
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psychotherapeutic and you have to really sort of undo everything that you’ve learned about
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music and about how music should sound and what the outcomes of music should be because
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when you’re working with people people are going to bring their own personal music into
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your space and your job is to be there with them in that not to put any of your own ego
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expectations on it and that’s like the fundamentals but it takes all of those three years to learn
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that and then everything afterwards as well you work with not just the cove you work
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with a variety of people in a variety of circumstances um without going into any specifics
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clearly what sort of um environments do you find yourself doing this similar sort of thing
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well um i at the moment i mostly work in schools um and then do some work in homes too with
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children that have experienced trauma significant trauma adopted and foster children um and a few
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children with significant life difficulties as well physical difficulties but you know music’s
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universal you can work with absolutely everybody there’s no barrier it’s wonderful yes i guess
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that’s one thing about our training is that we are trained to work with people and and
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any age any background um whereas other trainings in different modalities might be
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age-specific i’m thinking about um psychotherapy training and you might only train with to work
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with adults or with um children and young young adults so um we have quite a diverse scope um
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in how we work but i guess there’s there’s that description of what is music itself
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um and that actually music can just be the person and how they are in the world
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emma any thoughts um i’m sort of sitting here with my mouth open thinking this is amazing um
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you know it’s a master’s degree three years undoing everything you’ve learned i mean i’m
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assuming that prior to this you were playing in orchestras and um structured music and to
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do all of that structure it’s that’s that takes some doing i mean all it was actually to be
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honest it was a bit of a relief emma um before before i did this i was a music teacher in
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secondary schools for like uh eight or nine years um and i found it quite limiting having
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to put myself in that little box so um improvisation which is like a core a core
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method that we work with as as part of our training and as part of all of our work really
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is the the ability to just have a go at making a sound and see what happens and
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to be i was always more comfortable than that with that than i was with you know Mozart sadly
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and it’s a lot about and it’s a lot about sort of um as you say listening to people and
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following the moods and what’s going on because i i’m very you know in the last one i was thinking
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i’ve got yeah i’m very aware actually what’s what’s going on at that stage okay so back
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from the music and um we’ve talked um have we talked i’ve lost track now once another
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brain fog moment but are you again i don’t know i don’t where am i
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um anyway you’re listening to the core wall cancer cafe podcast with uh myself matthew
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clark and emma koom here and what do you get from the music therapy emma oh gosh that’s the
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huge question isn’t it um well i’d sort of like to tell my story a little bit around
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the music therapy because as i mentioned before i’m a saxophone player and i play in bands
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and orchestras so i’ve i’m in this structured box so the first time i came to music therapy
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i thought i was going to be playing something and of course it’s not about that at all it’s about
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breaking that barrier down and yeah going outside the box or actually going inside the box to the
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middle to it to actually get to the nuts and bolts isn’t it so the first time the first
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session i ended up picking up a little drum or something that just um jangle i can’t remember
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it was i picked up something small anyway and as the sessions have gone on i’ve tried different
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instruments because you bring um there’s like a little harp and there’s the little carimba thing
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and there’s that there are things that are musical that have got notes on them and then
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there are things that you can shake and there are also tactile things as well there’s beads
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and there’s um buttons and there’s shells and things there are things that there’s rain
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makers um there are little bells there’s all sorts of don’t forget to mention the symbol
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oh yes the symbol oh yeah oh and there’s also that bell thing what’s that bell thing called
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with all the chimes on it like a wind chime yeah the chime buzz i like tinkling those
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yeah but yeah so there are things that like a symbol that you can make a real
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if you’re feeling really angry you can just whack it and we have we were very sort of um
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i was very reticent we were very polite to begin with we were very polite but with with
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our group which is it’s open people can come and join our group um we were polite to begin
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with and then we started getting to know each other because we’d have a coffee before the
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session and then we’d have a bit of a chat and we’ve got to know each other so we’re a
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little bit more confident now and we’re beginning to make more noise i think i’ve i’ve found
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personally that it’s the opportunity to without a plan to address my emotions my inner self
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and to not worry about what comes out and not have to put words to any of that stuff
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and i found that very very useful um so yeah now going back to claire and emma here
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what have you learned about um cancer patients people dealing with cancer whether they’re in
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treatment or post-treatment because uh it’s um it’s a wide old um thing because as i’ve said
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lots of times we we say no cancer is the same no cancer patient is the same no even if you’ve
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got the same cancer as someone else what you go through is completely different so it’s it’s a
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tricky thing in many ways to talk about so what what have you learned from some of this
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oh so much so so much i mean you’re you’re touching on something that we think about all
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two people are the same um no two family dynamics are the same no two jobs are the same you know
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um we’re working with people and um but i feel like we’ve well i’ve gone into this group very
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naive um as to what what you’re going through and things that you think about and things that
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might feel difficult for you um so we’ve learned an incredible amount um it’s been
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quite humbling it’s been um yeah humbling is the word for it isn’t it and the the strength
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that you know the people that come every month has shown has been just incredible and the the
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the bravery to share and to like let bits of yourself out in in so many like different ways
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and to be part of a thing that’s a i guess enables you to do that and to you know we just
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bring our instruments along every month and we sit there and we play a bit of music and yeah
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this is a significantly deep and meaningful hour of our lives in a month and we get to the end
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of it and every month i think we both go this is incredible that we get to do this and
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to be part of it and you guys trust us with that you trust us with your deepest and most
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heartfelt painful thoughts that just you trust us to just hold that for you and and like
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hopefully we do uh you know that as well as we possibly can and it’s just incredible to to
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sit there and have it be a thing that is hopefully helping you all it’s um it’s astounding
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really it’s just astounding and there’s a little moment of uh mindfulness towards the end of each
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session isn’t there yes we we we have a little thing at the end of sessions just to have a
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little bit of a framework so that we all understand the session is coming to a close
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an opportunity to think about self-regulating what might be coming up next um just to
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orientate a bit so we have the same piece of music each time um and there’s an opportunity
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to think about your breath in that time but actually since starting the group and i’m having
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understanding that actually sitting with your breath might be really challenging um so it’s
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more of an invitation rather than a this is what we are doing now um yeah so it’s an
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opportunity um rather than a task to be done it’s about grounding sorry it’s about grounding
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us back all like all of us collectively back in reality a little bit before we say goodbye
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okay so um we’ve been talking to emma packer and claire hamlin um anything that i haven’t
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asked you about that you were burning to point out no good that’s we’ve covered it all
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well we haven’t covered everything but we’ve covered a lot of stuff haven’t we
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there’s more than we can yeah but look if if people want to um it or people feel their need
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to um experience this for themselves and it would they think that it could help them
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after listening to this then you can contact the cove um you can find them on the web uh on
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facebook um and just ask about it and they’ll give you some helpful advice oh yes yes you
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can also find your local music therapist um through the british association for music
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therapy website there is a find a music therapist section where you just type in
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your postcode and it’ll give you um what music therapists are local to you excellent
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because uh some people further up the line who might not be able to get to the cove
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could use that and um so look thank you very much for coming in claire and emma
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thanks for having us oh hang on oh thank you for having us i’ve got to remember to hold the
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microphone to you when um and uh well emma coom and myself matthew clark we will be back
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again uh next week uh well i mean i will be back i don’t know about you will you be back
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um i might be back you might be back i might be back you might have enough of me by then
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and so the whole point of this is to give you support to give a big hug because it’s
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a necessity isn’t it it’s a necessity it’s a necessity and as i said when you give a hug
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you get a hug brilliant okay so the cawmore cancer cafe podcast will be back again we
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would like you to go on the website and give us a bit of feedback if possible and also
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we are looking for people to make up a listener’s panel to give us regular feedback
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which will help us to get another year on the back of this and provide you with even
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more support okay so thank you for listening till next week thanks to the national lottery
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community fund for supporting this podcast here to support you the cawmore cancer cafe podcast